My Twin Turbo

Dave · September 30, 2012, 22:44:58

Thanks for sharing!

I have an oil accumulator but it's not fitted to the Minker.

Best thing about it is it keeps the oil pressure stable in extreme conditions.

The racing cranks fit into the block with no mods, the mains are completely STD as they have an easy life, it's the big ends that are wider as they get hammered!

It's high revs & low down torque that kills big ends other than the oil problems of course.

As said your tuning an engine that started life as a little V4, the bearings where designed for an engine making less than 100bhp, the bearings have never been made bigger yet a STD 24V makes over twice the power & yours Matt will double that again. No wonder it's an issue.

Your doing the right thing, you have to trust your engine builder as you are paying him for his experience, knowledge & workmanship.
It should be them things that attracted you to him/them in the first place LOL!

All I have to add really is I have real trouble with Clevite bearings for some reason.

Fords own seem best.

10w 40 oil is a joke!

Millers 20w 50 classic oil was much better but still some signs of over loading.

Millers 10w 60 showed no signs of problems.

Without an oil cooler 2 laps of the ring = 170 degree c oil temp @ 300bhp.

Prolonged braking of 1G for more than 4 secs causes the oil light to come on with a STD 4wd sump.

Here was my biggest failure LOL!

Clevite + 10w 40 oil + 6500rpm + 330bhp.

One second it was fine the next it sounded like some one was hitting the car with a sledge hammer!

This was about 10 secs of damage.

[attachment=1]

T4T · October 01, 2012, 00:44:14

Prolonged braking of 1G for more than 4 secs causes the oil light to come on with a STD 4wd sump.

Dave

I've copied your girdle for the mains - thank you for that btw .

Have you continued to have oil surge issues since fitting this or has it managed to
influence the oil movement sufficiently to stop the problem .

Cheers
Matt

T4T · October 01, 2012, 22:30:31

On a far less serious note

Would anyone happen to have some spare pressed nut type things for holding the gearbox heat shield on to the underside of the car .

I have absolutely no idea what or when I have done with mine but I certainly haven't got them anymore !

Help

Or can you still get them new somewhere ?

Thanks

Matt

Dave · October 01, 2012, 23:21:13

QuoteDave

I've copied your girdle for the mains - thank you for that btw .
Have you continued to have oil surge issues since fitting this or has it managed to
influence the oil movement sufficiently to stop the problem .

Cheers
Matt

Yes it stopped it.

The combinations of thicker oil & the way I did the plate to slow down the oil flow to the front of the sump stops the pump running dry to a point I have not seen it happen again since the mods.

However it's the same as the crank, it's not a fix for the problem it simply gives you a bit more to play with, shit hot brakes, a fast straight that brakes down to a slow corner & you could see the oil light again.

An oil accumulator again gives you more to play with but the real fix is a dry sump set-up!

Again talk to your builder he will have ideas like maybe putting some gates in or enlarging the sump if it worries you.

You can still get them flying saucer type disc things as they are fitted to modern Fords still.

Just look at the exhaust heatshielding etc.

T4T · October 02, 2012, 11:45:40

Yeah I realise that all these solutions don't eradicate a problem .

"it's not a fix for the problem it simply gives you a bit more to play with"

Even true racing engines have their limits of course , it's just that they are designed so that they have a lot more to play with .

I'll be doing a variety of checking tests once the car is finished to try and identify any inherent problems with the set up .

An obvious one being a high speed to 0 mph brake test for oil surge .
That's good news with the girdle working as a baffle !
I'll wait and see before thinking about an accumulator .

Learning all the time though , and I'm starting to think I will not have spare wheels with full slicks for track use , maybe just some trackday tyres .
We'll see .

Matt

Finally heard about my gears which were starting to be a pita !
Done and boxed ready for shipping so should be with me soon !

capri v8 driver · October 02, 2012, 12:19:15

That girdle will not work as a baffle because it sits to high so the oil can still move away from the pick up and leave it uncoverd.

You can make this:

Baffles with trap doors. This keeps the oil traped at the pick up.

If you use a hv oil pump, make the sump bigger so it can hold about 20% more oil. A hv pump can suck the oil up, 25% faster than a normal pump and a standaard sump for the 12v or 24v only holds 4,25 liters. A high flow oil pump consumes 1litre of oil every second, at full engine speed, so you can see the problem now.

A good read: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/552904-baffling-stock-oil-pan-better-oil-pressure.html

However, everything has its limits and thats when you need a dry sump system.

T4T · October 02, 2012, 13:09:26

Not wishing to be disagreeable but a litre a second seems a bit on the high side .

I confess I don't actually know the figures , but on Dave's stealth engine thread at 50psi ( which is too low and raising the pressure will reduce flow )
the melling pump is flowing 1.4-2.1 litres a minute .

Yes a big wing gated sump along with other mods will help more oil be available for the pump and may yet happen but the hope is , it won't be necessary .

Yes I will be driving this a lot harder than a std xr4x4 - brakes , suspension , tyres being vastly improved and hopefully I am not deluded thinking I have a modicum of
driver ability .

Technically maybe calling the girdle a baffle may be incorrect but seeing as it seems to be doing it's secondary job of trapping more oil in the sump under hard braking ,
this is why I have used the term .

As much as I am trying to do this whole car the best I can there are very real financial constraints .

Hope I don't sound too argumentative , I'm not the friendliest of people when ill and I'm stuck at home with the bloody flu !!

Cheers
Matt

Dave · October 02, 2012, 14:23:34

The way I have done the plate helps but it can be much better.

My engine is not intended for serious track so only did what I thought would be a fix for the braking issue but my first concern was to brace the middle bearing caps.

It would need more work for serious track days.

Look at ebay item 160762272283

O.K that won't fit a 2.9 sump but that gives you an idea.

I am sure your builder will have his own idea's on the subject Matt.

On mine when the oil is at max it sits flush on a running engine with the bottom of the plate, this boxes the oil in & combined with the 45 degree bit of the sump forms two barriers so when you brake it slows the oil transfer down to the front of the sump.

It won't help with corners much & is only for sudden prolonged braking.

It only gives you more time before the pump goes dry.

The pump shifts a lot of oil but only some of it goes around the engine as most of it returns back to the sump pick-up via the spring bypass.

Another smaller box the pick-up can sit in will give you even more time before it ran dry on the track.

This is all I was fixing.

A STD Minker engine with 10w 40 oil but with a 24v windage tray fitted.
Watch the oil light on the dash at the end, gauge showed no pressure when lights on & your probably thinking about the crank bearings but the turbo's would be with out oil even longer just after full boost!

T4T · October 02, 2012, 16:47:38

Okay , getting the message .

I shouldn't be so difficult , after all , you guys are trying to stop me risking destroying my engine .
For that , my mind is always open to useful suggestions , even if it appears not to be the case .

Matt

Lemon-Ade · October 02, 2012, 20:25:50

A very good read paul and the part numbers for the Cosworth trap doors is dead handy too.

It concerns me to Matt so I'm listening to all the input too, big wing and trap doors is discussed in depth on that link and has me thinking it may be the way to go without great expense.

T4T · October 02, 2012, 20:48:02

Okay , now been thinking about this .

If I were to do either baffled or gated I think it would have to be gated as baffled doesn't stop the oil surge ,
just slows it down .

But I have a major issue with gated sumps in that when actually in operation - the gate/s is closed from the weight of oil moving across the sump -
the very nature of the feature has massively decreased the size of oil reservoir available to the pump and therefore you risk oil starvation anyway !!

Therefore big winged comes into the equation but this is only possible on one side of the sump because the front diff is in the way !!

So I'm thinking along the lines of two external reservoir cylinders at the same level as the sump possibly about 3 litres each but having about 1 1/2 litre oil inside the rest being air , one on either side of the car which have two pipes each -
one oil and one breather , the oil pipe connecting to the sump on the side of the well at the back of engine .
Perhaps located in the space between the inner and outer wings behind the front wheels .

With the pump pickup where it is as standard there should be no problems under acceleration .
Under extreme braking if oil moves forwards then both tanks will release oil into the sump due to gravity .
Under cornering in whichever direction , oil will move from the relevant tank into the sump .

What do people think ?
Am I losing the plot now ?

I'm thinking this solves oil surge problems due to the shape of the cylinders .
You would need some monumental cornering forces to get the oil to drain out of the sump into the loaded cylinder .
Yet at the same time the the oil in the unloaded cylinder would be able to get into the sump easily .

If I did this ( if it works in theory - please comment ! ) the only problem I can envisage being colder oil in the reservoirs ,
although this could be dealt with by having the turbos draining into them .

Regards

Matt

capri v8 driver · October 02, 2012, 21:52:56

There is not 1 trap door, but 4 to cover each side, so even if one closes, it gets the oil from the opposite side, witch opens.

QuoteSo I'm thinking along the lines of two external reservoir cylinders at the same level as the sump possibly about 3 litres each but having about 1 1/2 litre oil inside the rest being air

You can not fill them more than the height of the oil level in the sump, so it must be big cilinders, as the height is only +/- 20 cm from the sump bottom to the full on the dipstick.

T4T · October 02, 2012, 22:06:22

Yes the cylinders would be relatively tall and narrow and set at the appropriate height in the vehicle
so that they are approx 1/2 full when gravity is doing it's thing and finding the natural level .

With a gated set up I realise there is more than one gate but you have to control the oil movement in the entire sump .
If you just control the oil within the trap the oil in the rest of the sump potentially moves behind the very gate that is closed .
This is taking things to an extreme but if I am to do something about this oil surge then - other than dry sump- I will try and picture the extremes to find a solution .

I'm guessing from your reply Paul that my idea is not a non starter ?

Cheers

Matt

capri v8 driver · October 03, 2012, 08:21:52

QuoteI'm guessing from your reply Paul that my idea is not a non starter ?

I dont think its a good idea. Where do you gone mounth the cilinders, as they need to be at the same height as the sump? And thats a start, there are a few more practical problems.

QuoteWith a gated set up I realise there is more than one gate but you have to control the oil movement in the entire sump .
If you just control the oil within the trap the oil in the rest of the sump potentially moves behind the very gate that is closed .

Like i said before: There is not 1 trap door, but 4 to cover each side, so even if one closes, it gets the oil from the opposite side, witch opens.

maybe this picture makes it more clear:

This is a Aviaid sump for a small block and according racers that use this design, it solved there oil pressure problems on the track with high g corners.

Here a other picture of the same design:

On this site you can see how the trap doors work:

http://www.tomeipowered.com/BTE/index.php/2012/07/31/new-universal-baffle-plate/

T4T · October 03, 2012, 19:58:22

Ok , much as I like my idea in theory , as Paul has pointed out , there are practical problems implementing it .

Feeling better today so have actually ventured outside the house and looked at the car . Without some clever bespoke work ( money )
it's not really feasible .Talk about trying to overthink a problem !!

So I have chatted with my engine guy about this and .....
He said the girdle will be acting as a baffle but maybe we will widen it further or drop vertical baffles from it or both .

He moved away from gates a while back because of failures due to vibration/fatigue .
He has seen this on ex-works cars as well that are bought by privateers and then many "works consumables" become permanent attachments .
Also that many works cars do not run gates any more and just use baffles .

So contrary to what I originally thought I will be having a baffled sump if further work is deemed necessary .

I just have to bow deeply to his knowledge and experience .

Matt

Lemon-Ade · October 03, 2012, 21:54:41

On that thread paul linked up Cosworth make rubber gates ( vibration no problem) I can't copy the pic but even BMW use them and the part numbers are there.

T4T · October 03, 2012, 22:09:38

Hi , yes I saw those and mentioned them while chatting today - he doesn't think I need to worry about this overly .
He will just do what he feels necessary at assembly stage .

I am finding that things I'm worried about and trying to solve are dealt with by a knowing , patient look and a smile .
I'm just glad I've known him for fifteen years and we get on well , so can talk .

He's been building competition engines for thirty years and this is no.2 engine for me .

I just have to let him get on with what he does best I think .

Cheers

Matt

Lemon-Ade · October 03, 2012, 22:21:21

Cool mate nice to know

Cheers Ade

T4T · October 03, 2012, 22:58:22

Yeah it is reassuring to know it's in good hands .
Wish I could relax a little more but this car has been in the making for a decade nearly .

How's your engine btw , did you find the cause of the noise or was it the loose girdle ?

Cheers
Matt

Dave · October 04, 2012, 11:19:25

You thought about it too much Matt.

The best idea's are always simple ones!

Just look how simple my plate is & does two jobs very well.

To get it to work for corners simply weld on some thin plates front to back (sides) to slow the oil movement down to give you more time before the pump sucks air.

T4T · October 05, 2012, 18:57:14

I have been accused of over thinking things sometimes .

Next issue

TO DUMP OR NOT TO DUMP VALVE ?

That is the question .

I say definitely yes , one dump valve on intercooler outlet .
Atmospheric not recirc type due to keeping it simple LOL .

I don't actually like the noise but I'll have to get used to it for the sake of looking after the turbos I think .

Matt

TimoXr4i · October 05, 2012, 19:25:08

Im in the same tought, dumpvalve or not. I think it would be a good idea to get a dumpvalve, becouse it is better for your turbo, but what kind, and where to fit. Ive got me a cossie 4x4 intercoller, i think it has a dumpvalve connection on it from the factory, so fitting it wont be that difficult,but what kind. A "silent" vag like dumpvalve like on a audi s3, or a noisy one with a big trumpet, or... A recircular one, to improve the spooling? Might get both a recirc one, and a atmosperic one, and make a blanking plug for the recirc one, so, when i get tired of the pssst sound, ill just bolt the recirc one in. My car aint a subaru, so, i dint need the pssst sounds to make my car cool

T4T · October 05, 2012, 20:10:54

I think for me trying to go recirculating would be difficult because of trying to split the dump
into the two intakes on opposite sides of the engine . Quieter would be better though .

Used to drive a saab 2.3 9000 for a little while with an aftermarket recirc type and a very large k&n cone
in the space between inner and outer wing . Sounded quite nice .

Oh , where can I find info on air filters ?
I know the area I need but where is info on how many pleats and their depth on different filters ?

Trying to get everything ready for engine install .

Cheers
Matt

Lemon-Ade · October 05, 2012, 21:04:41

I was told GT turbos should dump

mate I think they are a little more fragile than the older turbos.

Mine was atmos and it wasn't really that noisy, no trumpet though, I quite liked it, its not like it was a daily lol

I used the k&n USA site all the info was there sizes etc then ordered the ones that fitted the bill in the uk.

T4T · October 05, 2012, 21:26:51

Cheers for that .

I'll have a looksy .

Matt

Dave · October 07, 2012, 07:18:04

With your turbo's defiantly dump.

Your turbines are small for response but your compressors are big.

Compressors can make more power than the turbines can flow which which means a dump valve will really help as the compressor wheel flows a lot so the boost spikes will be high which will really hammer the turbo's as the compressor wheel is big.

I really can't stand the pist.............. sound anymore!

T4T · October 07, 2012, 11:22:23

That's settled then .

Hoping I won't have any boost spikes !!

Running air injectors controlled from the ecu .

Matt

TimoXr4i · October 07, 2012, 12:56:55

What knd of dumpvalve do you need anyway? So many to choose...

T4T · October 07, 2012, 16:27:40

Bailey dv24 for me as Omex ecu and no afm's .

Matt

JFB Tech · October 07, 2012, 21:05:48

I use a pair of Bailey recirculating ones on mine, they tee off just before the throttle and dump back into the turbo inlets. I made up a combined pressure balancer/dump valve Tee that is mounted in front of the throttle and concentric tees for the turbo inlets.

I wanted dump valves to stop the compressors stalling and slowing down but I didn't want the chavvy noise. I figured if I dumped the boost directly back into the compressors, it would help keep them spinning. Seems to work well, I know they're only little T2s but there is no lag at all.