Sierra XR4x4 24V Supercharged

[Phatphil]

I thought it was about time I got round to putting some images of my car in the appropriate section. Here are a few photos of my '87 Ford Sierra XR4x4, originally a Turbo Technics F31 250Bhp 2.8L V6, but now fitted with a Cosworth 24V V6 supercharged. The engine and all work on the car has been done by myself as a hobbie, and I use the car for sprints and hillclimbs in the south east of the UK.

The Engine Bay:

[attachment=1]

Car @ Scorpion Sprint - Longcross - July 06. This was a test day running the engine in, so I limited the revs to 5000rpm and eased off to maintain the Exhaust Gas Temp below 750 degrees C.

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Here is a link to some in-car video from Longcross. Only coasting unfortunately, as I was running the engine in, but a great course to drive.

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l166/XR24x4SC/?action=view&current=LongcrossJuly06.flv

Car @ B&HMC Sprint @ Goodwood - August 06. Notice my new radiator scoop to help get airflow through the radiator mounted almost flat across the front of the car. Revs still limited to 5000rpm unfortunately as the fuel injectors aren't big enough and on the rolling road, they were maxing out much over 5000rpm.

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I still have some more work to do before I can fully map the engine, but hope to have it ready for Brighton Speed Trials on 9th Sept 06. New Bosch Green Giant injectors fitted, some welding on the plenum to do and fit some 0.3mm water jets into the inlet runners to each cylinder to increase in-cylinder cooling.

I haven't downloaded any video from Goodwood yet, but will soon.

Phil

[Dave]

Looks dam good Phil.

Nice neat install & well thought out.

Be nice to see a dyno sheet well done mate.

Dave.

[Super 12v]

a very familiar sound

i will be gearing my 12v up again  going back up to 2.26:1 on my pulley ratio.

Out of interest do you monitor the ACT's from the outlet of the blower?

As i'm curious about the position of your WI would it not have a greater effect fitted pre blower? As if my outlet temps rise over 100 degrees (I suspect they will be) I will be fitting WI the same as Sparkplugs, I'm not a fan of WI but to run the boost levels I want i may have to.  

Great conversion

[Phatphil]

a very familiar sound

i will be gearing my 12v up again  going back up to 2.26:1 on my pulley ratio.

Out of interest do you monitor the ACT's from the outlet of the blower?

As i'm curious about the position of your WI would it not have a greater effect fitted pre blower? As if my outlet temps rise over 100 degrees (I suspect they will be) I will be fitting WI the same as Sparkplugs, I'm not a fan of WI but to run the boost levels I want i may have to.  

Great conversion

I am only monitoring ACT from the air temp sensor under the plenum chamber, via a laptop, and I have a twin EGT gauge reading from the rear two cylinders.

I am running two water injection systems, one using a large Sureflo pump giving 8 Bar pressure, which feeds a 1.0mm jet into the supercharger inlet, and a 1.0mm jet after the intercooler, and will also feed 6 x 0.3mm jets into the inlet runners when I fit them. It is controller by a boost switch and the Aquamist FIA2 controller. The second system uses an ERL pump feeding a spray bar onto the intercooler with 3 x 0.4mm jets, which is just on a manual switch.

Even with this large amount of water, the engine likes to run quite rich at about 0.8 Lambda. I will hopefully get it back on the rolling road next week and finish the mapping.

Phil

My pulley ratio is 2.6:1, so temperatures would get pretty high without the WI.

[Super 12v]

I am only monitoring ACT from the air temp sensor under the plenum chamber, via a laptop, and I have a twin EGT gauge reading from the rear two cylinders.

I am running two water injection systems, one using a large Sureflo pump giving 8 Bar pressure, which feeds a 1.0mm jet into the supercharger inlet, and a 1.0mm jet after the intercooler, and will also feed 6 x 0.3mm jets into the inlet runners when I fit them. It is controller by a boost switch and the Aquamist FIA2 controller. The second system uses an ERL pump feeding a spray bar onto the intercooler with 3 x 0.4mm jets, which is just on a manual switch.

Even with this large amount of water, the engine likes to run quite rich at about 0.8 Lambda. I will hopefully get it back on the rolling road next week and finish the mapping.

Phil

My pulley ratio is 2.6:1, so temperatures would get pretty high without the WI.

yeah, i had been there without WI and and no IC b4, my ACT's went out of it's range at 130degrees so it got toasty. This happen the first time round with 2.26:1 ratio. surfice to say the blower didnt last long.

I've now got a new bottom end which forged low comp accralites dropping it down to 7.6:1 which is the first time i've tested it with a decent CR. lowest i've run b4 was 8.6:1 which made a diffence alone to operating temps

What size IC are you using? I have a modified Pulsar GTI IC which does the job nicely at the mo. with very consistant temp of 30 degrees on cool down and rising to 36 degrees at full chat and spirit driving.

Rob

[xr4isparescentre]

WOW  videos good  thats the b*******s mate if only  

[Phatphil]

Intercooler is a Cossy one - quite small, but seems to do a good job. You can see the layout in the photo below, with the large ally radiator angled at the bottom. The rad was built for a Lambourgini Countach race car, so I have no problems with water temp.

[attachment=1]

I'm running forged pistons with a CR of 8.5:1 and boost pressure just under 1 Bar, so not too extreme (equivalent to about 11.5:1 CR). However heat is still an issue and even on idle the discharge manifold from the supercharger gets really hot. I'm actually contemplating an over-ride of the boost switch on the WI so that I can cool the system prior to starting a run.

BTW - Barry, thank's for sorting that 2.8 engine a couple of weeks ago, I was going to come up with my brother when he picked it up, but got tied up working on the car. Looks a very clean engine, so should get the guy that wanted it out of trouble.

Phil

[Super 12v]

Phil, I've thought about a alloy rad but I have to say until i get temp problems I will stay with what I have

The Pulsar Ic is quite nice, and thick too  I run a YB rad and find it cools well  no problems there... yet!

I have thought about welding a jacket on the blower and water cooling it b4 now  lol

the X300 jag our blowers come from run at 2.45:1 on the straight six and see high ACT's at the outlet. the V8 with M112 to see over 160 degrees b4 it gets to the charge coolers

Keeps an eye on the front seals on the blower as the heat kills them. a sure sign is the oil lining itself on the inlet.



Rob

[Phatphil]

Ok - spent the day on the rolling road, and the new injectors and extra water jets have done the job. The engine is now mapped for full revs, which I plan on keeping at 6200rpm, but set the rev limiter at 6500rpm, so that I can overrev it slightly if the next corner is too close to warrant the extra gearchange.

Picture of the the car on the rolling road at Gt Art - Brighton.

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Print out of a couple of dyno runs in the latter stages of mapping. We have kept it pretty safe with the AFR as I want some reliability and the High torque figure won't leave me wanting for more power, for a while yet. All figures are at the wheels, so to account for the losses through the 4x4 transmission, you need to multiply by about 1.25 to give flywheel figures.

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Print out of our final power runs, but green plot showing it running as we've set it up, and the red plot using the table multiplyer function to lean off the fuelling slightly across the whole map, giving a crisper engine and increase in both torque and power. This is an optional setting if I ever need a little extra for the last run of the day.

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The boost pressure curve has a steady drop off as the revs increase, which I am assuming is a characteristic of superchargers, since the thermal efficiency drops off at higher rotor speeds. Has anyone else noticed a similar pattern with their supercharger?

All ready for Brighton Speed trials on Saturday now so it will be interesting to see what time it will do. It's a great event consisting of a 1/4 Mile Drag up Brighton Seafront, and is in fact the oldest motor racing event in the country, running since 1903. If anyone lives locally it is well worth coming to see, and it would be great to meet you.

Phil

[Super 12v]

yes mine drops of but not that early. mine starts perhaps at 5.5k+ which I would say is possibly mine is considerably under geared in comparison bit when I used to run the blower quicker as long as I could stop the belt from slipping it would hit one bar and then climb slowly with engine speed to 19 psi.

Are you sure the belt doesnt slip and even when mine drop's you're talking maybe 1 psi and not a large drop off and not that early.

I know from experience how hard an over driven m90 can be to keep the belt from slipping especially if you're running 6 rib belt, and even when they're tight enough they dont last long

Another thought is the cam timing, if it aint setup right then it could easily drop off with too much overlap, as appears do so when you'd expect the 24v to be "on cam".

[Phatphil]

You could be right there, as I'm still running std BOA cams and a 6 rib belt. I sprayed the belt with belt spray and it's really tight, but the cams are definitely not ideal for forced induction. Maybe a set of proper cams could be the answer some time in the future.

I'm amazed that you got that much boost out of the M90, Eaton predicted 1 Bar, and that's exactly what I'm getting at peak. I guess I'm losing a bit through the long inlet tract and intercooler. How was your torque figure like at the lower pulley ratio? Did you still get loads of low down torque?

Phil

[Super 12v]

You could be right there, as I'm still running std BOA cams and a 6 rib belt. I sprayed the belt with belt spray and it's really tight, but the cams are definitely not ideal for forced induction. Maybe a set of proper cams could be the answer some time in the future.

I'm amazed that you got that much boost out of the M90, Eaton predicted 1 Bar, and that's exactly what I'm getting at peak. I guess I'm losing a bit through the long inlet tract and intercooler. How was your torque figure like at the lower pulley ratio? Did you still get loads of low down torque?

Phil

I still get loads of torque with the lower pulley ratio, can run much more advance with stock CR. with the higher ratio everything seemed to be a compromise with heat. and everything had to be worked around the heat. with the lower ratio and intercooler and higher flowing heads and cam mods I see 8 psi max and consistently. I can still load the belt up to slip tho. I would say i'm seeing more power and more torque now  just less in the way of cool noises.

Remember boost isnt like a turbo with a positive dispacement pump, it is really an idication of what is being consumed. Every one i've spoken to says 1 bar is too much for the m90, 13psi is realistically the most you can run if you can control the temps, as beyond this the blower become inefficient. I think the 19psi I saw was a indication a certain ammount of the "boost" was heat expansion as the temps were insane, also no Ic was present and was straight to the plenum. so much power is lost to heat, the mamount of fuel i had to run also was insane just to keep the piston crowns cool. you can gain more from slowing the blower down and running more advance. only difference i've noticed is i hit peak boost slower than running the blower quicker.

if I can tune mine to 10-12psi I'll be hitting my effiency target as to what is managable. above this i'll be fighting with the heat produced.

I've yet to try mine with the lower CR pistons i have so i'll have a certain ammount more tuning to do as I know i can run the blower quicker again and maintain the same boost levels. 12psi is my ideal target as with my engine spec is should yield 300bhp and impressive torque. Cam timing plays a huge part to, I intend to mod my timing further to get more accurate adjustment than just moving a tooth out.

Rob

[Dave]

Phil

I don't think people realise what power you actually got mate.

Engine as in flywheel power would be around:

370lbs @ 3500rpm
300bhp @ 4800rpm

Damn good if I have read the graphs proper?

Alot like sparkplugs 3.7L 12V S/C


S/C always tail off where turbo's keep a going but there again yours will make more low down, it's all a question of what you prefer?

[Phatphil]

Hi Dave

That's what I worked out the power and torque as, but like everyone says, supercharger power is very different to turbo power. I have found that I have changed my driving style to suit, using less revs and driving on the torque low down. At Goodwood, this meant taking some corners in a higher gear than I used to with the turbo engine, and the car feels far easier to drive.

My intention with this engine was to give really good acceleration out of corners, which is an issue with such a heavy car. I feel that I've achieved this and you can see it on the video from Longcross. I will find out today what it will do on a quarter mile, and I am hoping that it will get into the 12 secs. I let you know when I get back. Have to go to bed now, just back from the workshop prepping the car, and I'm shattered.

Phil

[Dave]

Yeah I think it's well suited for what you want.

On a short twisty point to point track just the job.

I am guessing high 12 's or low 13's for your run, alot will depend on your gear change rev point. It might take a few runs to figure it out & to get a really fast run.

[Phatphil]

Well car was faultless on the day. Engine sounded crisp and eager although the limited grip on the startline, made it spin up very easily. Best time of the day was 13.52 secs, and our last 3 runs came in at 13.57, 13.54 and 13.52, so I guess we were pretty close to what the car was capable of. We tried real hard to beat Ron Harris, but he may be an old man, but he's a very fast man, and his pinto engined Mk 1 escort got down to a 13.2 secs and we couldn't match him. So he took the Endevour trophy for the fastest Brighton & Hove club member in a Ford saloon, and the fastest Ford of the day was Julian Godfrey in  his RS200, with a time in the very low 10s.

Full results and photos will soon be up on the club website:

http://www.brightonandhovemotorclub.co.uk

Phil

[Dave]

Phil I am sure you can get lower than that.

Whats your car weight & was you changing early or reving it a bit  

Also is yours STD xr4x4 transmission set-up?

[Phatphil]

Dave

The car still weighs 1300Kg which is something I'd like to address this winter. I tended to short shift it slightly as the low end torque feels the strongest, and I know that the boost pressure drops off higher up the revs. When I get round to downloading it I'll post some in-car video of a run, so you can see.

Times are generally slower for everyone in Brighton compared to Santa Pod etc. due to the reduced grip levels on launch. The best time Geoff Kershaw has achieved there is 11.11 secs, and I know he has done mid 10s elsewhere. So maybe on the right day and the right place it could break into the 12s.

I'm planning to leave the engine alone for a while now, as I'm confident that it's reliable and I've spent enough time and money on it for now. I want to do a few events with it and enjoy it for now, and work on some weight reduction over the winter. The class record in my class at Brighton is 10.54 secs by the GTart Skyline, and Gary is my engine mapper, so I know that the last time he put it on the rolling road, it was giving well over 800 BHP at the wheels. No way that the trust FBA can make that sort of power.

Phil

[Dave]

I have just worked out on paper that your car is capable of 13 dead quarters.

If you lost about 200 lbs you should get 12.8's  

Plastic windows & stripped doors will give you close to 200 lbs less.


Dave.

[Phatphil]

Dave

Forgot to say, recently changed from type 9 to MT75, with std diffs etc. just solid mounted the cradle and welded up the suspension on the gearstick, to give it a more positive feel, but haven't made it quickshift yet. Maybe tempted to change the gearstick lever ratio a bit at some point, but not much.

Have thought about the 3.14 diffs, but for most events I do, I don't think I'd need the extra top end speed. I also run on very soft rallycross slicks Kumho Ecsta, on the original Bollgen 9 spoke TT wheels.

Phil

[Dave]

For quarters the 3.14 diff should be 0.2 faster but your 0-60 will drop 0.53.

You will only gain 10 mph top speed as your power is dropping off fairly fast.

It would be suited to your car, you know Geoff runs them  

All my figures are based on 205 50 15 tyres by the way.

[Phatphil]

Mmmm - I am interested in the diffs, but the price needs to come down for me to stretch to them at the moment. I'm currently looking for a job, so we'll see how that goes. It would be good to have longer gears.

That tyre size is about the same as mine, maybe nearer 225/50 15, can't remember to be honest. I wonder how much drag my radiator scoop is causing, and I know the rear wing adds loads of drag. I'm planning to add door braces to the roll cage and weld the cage to the body shell pillars, and then strip back the inner lining of the doors, and shell where possible. Thinking about a small ali fuel tank, so that I can cut out the whole rear floor and cover it with an ali sheet. Bumpers need to change to fibreglass, and I'd like to do bonnet and bootlid in fibreglass too. May also take the dash right out if I find time. Need to study the MSA blue book and get trimming.

Phil

[Dave]

Also figures based on STD Sierra drag figures.

Pity about the diffs, only way they will get cheaper is if I find more buyers  

Alot of people don't realise what a difference gearing can make which makes it hard to sell something like diffs.

Less weight is where you can gain alot.

If you get down to what Geoff's car weighs, you could get to 12.6's.

His car is capable of 10.3's if he runs 600hp which I don't think he does all the time.

[Phatphil]

If the price of the diffs drops a little, with a bulk order, my guess is that several people will be interested. In reality, compared to what it costs to build the engines, they are not too expensive, for the given performance boost. They would suit my engine, as I have buckets of low down torque, so the longer gearing would definetly give me an advantage.

Geoff normally runs at about 450 BHP for sprint events, and his car weighs about 1000Kg. He was entered in the Brighton Speed Trials again this year, but couldn't make it as he had some work commitments with a trade show.

How is your engine coming along? Do you plan on doing any sprints or hillclimbs with it when it's done? I'm tempted by Mike's sump girdle, to gain the extra 1000 rpm, but would need to gear down the supercharger a bit. Also been thinking about a larger, or second supercharger, to increase the boost level to about 1.5 Bar. If only money and time weren't an issue.

Phil

[Dave]

Well my price is based on batches of 10, so it is a bulk order, TT use to have them in 10's too.
I will publish who made them etc but be warned if you ask them to make one diff it will be £1050.

If I can get say 20 interested then it will be abit cheaper but it is a dam good price.

For new rear C & P of 3.15 which is the closest I can find they want £600  

My engine well I have just had Mike do some mods to my crank so I gotta pick that up.

I am building my engine because I just fancy doing it no real reason but the odd track day etc is all on the cards.

It will be a fully kitted out road car & bit heavy at about 3000 lbs so not sure what I could enter  

I hope to have it for a few years that's why I am putting so much work in to reliability like Skyline box, 3.14 ATD diffs etc

[Phatphil]

Photo of car on the startline at Brighton Speed trials:

[attachment=1]

Here is a link to a short video showing first practice runs in-car and my brothers 1st timed run from outside at the Brighton Speed Trials 9th Sept 2006.



Have been thinking about my drop off in boost, that can clearly be seen on the rolling road sheets? I have suspicions about the supercharger inlet manifold, as it is definitely not the best, and could be restricting airflow into the supercharger at higher revs. I therefore plan to tap in some blankable holes around the system and use then to take pressure readings and ideally temperature readings to check the efficiency of the system. First point of call will be to attach a vacuum gauge to the supercharger inlet plenum and see if it is causing any restriction that could explain the drop off in boost pressure.

I did some calculations of the throttle body throat diameter, and it is slightly undersized for this engine, so will measure a 12V one and see if it is any better.  I'm sure that I can get a lot more power out of this engine, if I could find the cause of the boost pressure drop off. I don't think it is belt slip, since it is too consistant and the belt doesn't show the battle scars of that kind of abuse. The supercharger is working well within its operating range, when the boost is dropping off, so I know that I am not overdriving it.

Anyone suggest a cheap way to measure air temperature in the inlet system? Have been thinking about some extra thermocouples that I could tap in and connect to the 2 channels of the EGT gauge. Thermocouples can be pricey though, and I will need a few.

Phil

[Tony]

phil
you can adapt temp gauges sold by maplins,, have a look at there range!
or

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Air-charge-temp-gauge-inlet-temp-sensor_W0QQitemZ200025308587QQihZ010QQcategoryZ72215QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Air-charge-temp-gaug...1QQcmdZViewItem

as for thermocouples try this

http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZarttrader2001QQssPageNameZSTRKQ3aMEFSQ3aMESOI]http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrpp...Q3aMEFSQ3aMESOI

tony

[Phatphil]

Thought it was about time I posted an update. Car has been going very well, winning it's class at Lydden first time out this season. Just spent the weekend at wiscombe hillclimb, racing on both the Saturday and Sunday. Thoroughly recommend this venue, an immensley challenging course and a perfect setting. Few changes to the car, added coilovers to the rear, stiffened up the springs all round, fitted eccentric tops for the front struts and been tweaking the geometry. I'm really pleased with the results and car feels very surefooted and stable now. I Used new set of Avon soft hillclimb slicks this weekend, which were superb. I have bought a larger throttle body for it, and now need to make a new inlet manifold for it. Hopefully it should help the engine breathe better at the top end.

Here are links to couple of videos from Wiscombe, one in car, and one from outside.





Phil

[Super 12v]

Great vids  

making me miss mine even more

As for the temp gauage i'll see if I can find details of the part i'm using. It's an adapted piece of electronics and as such I havent finished it yet :D But it gives a LCD read out guages with a much greater range than anything available off the shelf.

Rob