24v turbo 4x4 MK3 escort

[robrs2]

Spotted the Subaru injectors on your build. I may get some as I would need plugs for the ones I have. Did you uprate the fuel pump?

[v6gerry]

Hi I did on my escort got a bosch 044 and replaced all the fuel line to aeroquip with -6 fittings and adjustable fuel regulator

[Dave]

Nice Escort that & a well done conversion.

I wouldn't have used that turbo but if your happy then that is what matters.

[v6gerry]

Hi Dave it seems ok with the std boa but i'll chat with tom about it now we going low comp but don't have much room for a bigger one as its close to inner wing now , maybe do a hibread conversion on the T3 ? was happy the way it pick up low down shame i didn't get it back on the rollers before it went pop .
i've built the car from a bare shell about 25years ago (could'nt afford a GARTRAC so built one but 4WD ) i altered the shell for suspension pick up and made the tunnel still has origanal floor and sills bulkhead  , and made the rear arms and hub carriers , rose joint one end and bushes the other end ,

Gerry

[cossiemk2]

I was thinking of converting a Mk4to 4WD a few years back.

There's plenty of space up front for a longitudinal engine up there.

Do you have any pics of the front/rear suspension Gerry?

[v6gerry]

the front is all xr4x4 with leda coil overs 2.25 springs . the rear i'll try and get some pic up if i can find them , shame i can't load them stright from my pc rather then through photo bucket which i get problems with .

[robrs2]

Converted a mk4 for someone a few years ago. Fitted the Sierra beam. Goes in nice

[Damocos]

Cheers damocos certainly will be not looking for big numbers but should be around 350bhp the plenum will hold it back ! got p off chasing companys for piston and then getting it all machined ok , so for a peace of mind took it up to tom . can,t wait now to get it back in and drive the old girl again .

Hows yours coming along ??

Has no interior atm, apart from that its good to go  Its just time has been against me in the last 12 mths so its taken a back seat. Will be out again by spring 

[v6gerry]

that's good then I remember you saying now when I pop in to your works a while back , yep hope mine will be at shows this year can't see any problems but you no how cars are !!!!!!! looking 4ward to getting new engine in 

[v6gerry]

small update on engine , spoke to Tom this week , said he got some pistons in which he thought would be suitable but wasn't happy with the crown and a measurement on them  so sent them back , now has spec what is needed and getting them custom made by his suppliers
will be 4to 6 weeks till he gets them , which I'm really pleased about , also spoke about the t3 which might get the front changed to push more air making the T3 into a T38 ( he lost me about the turbo as I'm not gen up on them, will run with his suggestion )  all looking good 

[Dave]

The thing is with all the old turbo's they are just that old designs.

Geoff at TT was working on the design of the T3's back in the 70's when he was at Garrett.
O.K they have been updated over the years but they are based on old idea's, tech & pre computer modeling.

For example that 2.8 TT engine you took out.
I have been advising a guy with one of them, all it has is forged piston's extra to the original build.

Got rid of the old T3 & replaced it with a GT2860RS with a custom T3 turbine housing from the U.S so it simply bolts in place.

It out spools the T3 & is good for another 100bhp compared to the TT T3.

The MFI is proving hard to get right but it pulled over 300 ft/lbs on first run, fuelling was too bad to go over 4500rpm but still managed 240bhp on 12psi.

Once fueling is sorted that old 2.8 will be over 350 ft/lbs & 300bhp plus on tweaked STD MFI.
A good 30-40% increase on the old TT set-up yet it will spool up faster & give a wider spread of power.

That's how much difference a modern turbo can make to an old install.

[v6gerry]

Thanks for that input Dave yes I can see where your coming from , will talk it through with tom ,  may have to alter my inner wing to get another turbo to fit .

Gerry

[robrs2]

Move the turbo forward a bit. Looks like you have room behind the headlight

[Dave]

On a turbo car the turbo is what dictates the character of the engine, people talk about compression, cams, inlets etc etc but the turbo will have the biggest effect on how the engine performs. So the turbo choice is critical!

A GT2860RS is no good for a 24v by the way, your looking at something like a GT3582 or similar. But again it depends what you want from the install as to what turbo to choose.
So mods to get the right turbo to fit are well worth it!

Thanks for that input Dave yes I can see where your coming from , will talk it through with tom ,  may have to alter my inner wing to get another turbo to fit .

Gerry

[v6gerry]

Move the turbo forward a bit. Looks like you have room behind the headlight

don't want to have new manifold made , so its going to have to bolt on to my manifold , the engine bill will be big enough so no budget for manifold .

[v6gerry]

On a turbo car the turbo is what dictates the character of the engine, people talk about compression, cams, inlets etc etc but the turbo will have the biggest effect on how the engine performs. So the turbo choice is critical!

A GT2860RS is no good for a 24v by the way, your looking at something like a GT3582 or similar. But again it depends what you want from the install as to what turbo to choose.
So mods to get the right turbo to fit are well worth it!

What ever it makes on the dyno I will tell tom just to set power to around 350bhp no more so I'm not looking for big numbers just a good engine that picks up when you give it a boot full , just like it did before doing a piston !!

Thanks for that input Dave yes I can see where your coming from , will talk it through with tom ,  may have to alter my inner wing to get another turbo to fit .



Gerry

[Dave]

Do you have a dyno graph from before to look at?

You're putting half again the exhaust flow a YB would put through the turbo so it should choke up! It should be on full boost before 2500rpm due to the amount of exhaust flow & start to become restrictive at higher rev's.

What's the turbine housing A/R ?

[v6gerry]

no dyno graph it was RR at emerald when I first put this engine in with there ECU , had trouble with boost dropping off to 3psi dave said the turbo wasn't up to it (not big enough ) he was good went through a lot of things , we even changed injectors to 320 to reach good power , it made 243 bhp and 290 toque with boost problems . spoke to Tom about it and he said I needed a bleed valve to control boost he sent one down I fitted it and we had loads of boost ,and tom remapped it live and the car flew  .
Think ex is  .48 and turbine is  .42 its a STD cosy 4x4 unit

[Dave]

A dyno graph would be very interesting to look at because that turbo should not be able to flow the exhaust output from a 2.9 V6 at high revs.

At a guess I would say it spools very early, loads of low down power then drops power as the exhaust starts to choke up.

Graph would look very much like a supercharger one, which would explain why you like driving it on the road. 

[v6gerry]

i'll see if I can get it loaded up on here .

[Damocos]

Spotted the Subaru injectors on your build. I may get some as I would need plugs for the ones I have. Did you uprate the fuel pump?

Yep, I stuck in a Walbro 255 internal jobby.  Seems well up to the job

[Dave]

The 2.8 is back on the dyno soon as the fueling is said to be sorted so we will see how much better it is with a new design of turbo.

The reason the bleed valve worked on your install is because you have so much back pressure in the turbine section of the turbo as it's too small.

The exhaust pressure combined with the boost pushing against the actuator spring simply opens up the wastegate before it's setting as the exhaust pressure becomes excessive.

By fitting the bleed valve especially if it's the type with a bearing in it or ECU controlled you remove some of the force on the actuator so it can cope with more exhaust back pressure.

Exhaust back pressure robs you of power, creates very high EGT's which causes detonation, reduces the life of your engine & turbo.

Can you see how it all fits!

The turbine section of the turbo is too small.

[attachment=1]


You can see in the log above of a car I have worked on.
The turbine section on this car was too small. It made 300bhp but once a larger turbine was fitted & in this case a more efficient compressor too it made 400bhp on the same boost.

Green is boost, orange is back pressure at the turbine & red is RPM.

By 4000rpm it had more pressure in the exhaust system than it had boost pushing into the inlet. So power nose dived as you started to get reverse flow.
A cam with less duration would have been useless in this situation, a common mistake.
EGT's where hitting 1050 c but once the new turbo was fitted they dropped by 100 c yet the engine made 100 more bhp!!! The detonation limit raised by almost 10 degree in the mid range.

[TimoXr4i]

hi dave,

how did you guys make that amount of power with MFI? i really got stuck with fueling for 200 bhp. only other item i could imagine using is the porche carrera gt2 MFI measuring head and injectors. but, as far as i could find the injectors from that porche are the same as in the xr4i, but, it has a lot of a bigger fuel pump, and an inlet and outlet witch are actually designed instead of made by a vulcano eruption. my current, worked heads have been on the flow bench, and they can flow very much more than the 188.8 horses they do rightnow, the guy who did the measuring told me it could make an easy 200 bhp each, but, the design of the heads with the siamesed ports wont allow the heat buildup. he suggested remachine the inlet, and fit 6 large LGP injectors, and start on petrol using a single start injector like i'ts already has.
i ditched that idea. i later spoke to a german guy who was into the MFI tuning on volvo's and porches for the historical group A racing (he has a really cool, but very, very ugly volvo 240 turbo with big hp), but he told me, if you have the option, go for EFI, saves you a lot of trouble...

so, that's what i'm doing, i'm going for grey (joachim) style/skogenracing style 2.9er with a big lorry turbo and megasquirt, found the MFI way to frustrating....

[Dave]

Firstly Tim I have had nothing to do with the MFI as I don't know enough about it, when I ran a 2.8 MFI I used extra electronic injectors for fueling the extra power.
That was about 300bhp, used to do 13.1-5 quarters.

The graph above is not from the 2.8 car.

Originally the car spent a day at a MFI specialist who worked on the fueling & said it was spot on, even said he had seen over 300 bhp on 12psi!

When it went for final results on another dyno luckily he followed my advice & monitored everything that showed the fueling was terrible. The session was abandoned.

Now the metering head has been re-worked by another company & also the injectors are adjustable.

He has the ability to flow up to about 45% more fuel than before so will max out around 300bhp which was the target.

Yes EFI is far better & easier in every way! He just wanted it old school = nightmare lol

[TimoXr4i]

that was my issue also, it ran lean, terribly lean, infact that lean, the O2 sensor from the rolling road burned twice... i also had a few ingnition problems, making it even leaner. changing the whole ignition did help a bit, but i couldnt get enough fuel in to go over the 200 bhp border.

it ran pretty near the 200 bhp (around 196 bhp) with the coldstartinjector on full fire while the wur was disconnected, but that's cheating and "uncontrolled". dit make it run less lean, and made the max power on less revs.

the TT extra injectors could be a source of extra bhp, using some electronics to trigger them on revs instead of trigger them on the mapsensor, but why? that's why i stop the 2.8, stop the "custom" efi project, and just build a 2.9 with megasquirt or such, way simpeler, cheaper, reliabler

[v6gerry]

A little update , I've striped the paint off them , and had them vapour blasted to get rid of all the years of tarnish from the insides ,this is the result
, off to the painter now to get 2K painted same as the car ,

[v6gerry]

A dyno graph would be very interesting to look at because that turbo should not be able to flow the exhaust output from a 2.9 V6 at high revs.

At a guess I would say it spools very early, loads of low down power then drops power as the exhaust starts to choke up.

Graph would look very much like a supercharger one, which would explain why you like driving it on the road. 
Hi dave here is the R/Road graph from emeralds the first time it was set up .

[v6gerry]

some pic's of when i was building car back in the early 90's

[cossiemk2]

I like your build Gerry.

Did you mount your diff rigid into the rear frame?

I had that to but the noise/vibration was terrible.

That's why I suspended mine seperatly.

[v6gerry]

Hi yes diff bolted solid into frame , and the frame has 10mm anti vibration rubber in between the  mountings and body work , the suspension arms have mk1 escort tca bushes one end mounted to the frame and R/joints the other end as you see in picture , all works very well with no noise .